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Attachment Parenting

No-Cry Sleep Solution Discussion, page 2
From Our AP Forum Archives
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From stargirl: I was also thinking of how much in this book I've found in other books. I wonder how much of it is "new". I guess the part I like, that is "new" is the nap logs and sleep logs and leading me through it to make specific measurements. Recently I quit trying to get Juliana to nap alone and just kept on doing the night-time routine and pull-off. I also set up a side-car. I haven't gotten around to measuring it, but I think she is sleeping longer stretches at night. She slept from about 8:30 til 12:30 last night. I don't remember the rest of the night, but it's easier for me to sleep now that I have the sidecar set up.

From mary1: I sure hope this book will help us. I am getting so angry and resentful at being up all night. This was another up at 1:30 am for good night! Yuck. My biggest question is this: How in the world does one go about changing the sleep association? My daughter nurses to sleep most of the time. Daddy can put her to sleep by walking her in the Bjorn, but I can't, and he is not always here. The pull-off is totally not successful . . . yet. I want to desperately change her sleep association and diminish the night nursing. The book does not seem to give me a very good idea about how to change the sleep association that is established. I have tried white noise, music, rocking, singing, walking, car rides. Nothing seems to work but nursing. For instance, we have tried to establish a new bedtime routine which includes NOT nursing to sleep. But, when I put her in the crib and turn on music and sit and rub her or pat her, she just cries. We do not co-sleep very much anymore due to her activity level. I love the co-sleeping idea and premise, but it just does not work for us. Any suggestions on how to change the sleep associations??? Thanks.

From kaitlynsmom: There are so many sleep issues I'd like to resolve with Kaitlyn - changing her sleep-association (she also HAS to nurse to sleep), getting her naps more regular and longer, stopping the constant nursing all night long, getting her bedtimes more consistent (sometimes it's 8:30 pm, and sometimes it's 10:30 pm), and trying to get her to sleep in her crib (or even into the sidecar - just so I can have a little (just a little!!) space to move at night). I'm half-way through Pantley's book - so far most of the ideas look good, although I haven't put many of them to practice yet. I have tried the "Pantley pull-off" - but no way. My child, like most, has a strong will, and pushing her mouth shut to keep her nursing doesn't do anything besides wake her up back up and royally tick her off! In the last few days Kaitlyn has been taking longer naps - they used to be maximum of 45 minutes - now they're about an hour and a half. I haven't done anything different, so I'm also wondering if it's just a natural part of maturing. I'll keep reading the book though - I still find a lot of the info and ideas interesting.

From Ewan's Mum: Stargirl - I would probably be stressed if I was in your position too. Can you nap during the day and catch up on work at night? If my son sleeps for the night than every child will. Just hang in there.

From stargirl: Thanks for thinking about me. I am trying to work with a little light on at night while my daughter is sleeping next to me. I can probably squeeze another hour or two of work out that way per day. So far she doesn't sleep well if I'm not nearby, so I'll try to do that, rather than sneak out and work late. I'd rather work while she's napping, although if I find myself getting that tired again I'll have to remember to nap first, work later! I've got to convince my husband to take more of the load, too. He does a lot of the housework, but needs to learn how to eat his breakfast while taking care of our daughter at the same time and how to unload the dishwasher in 5 minutes, rather than 45 minutes, if you know what I mean.

From penny: I just want to say to those who are having problems still, it does take time!! I don't have the book in front of me, but the figures were something like 60% showed significant improvement within 30 days, and 92% within 60 days. It's not an "overnight success" method, no pun intended! I was one of the test mommies, and I didn't really follow through fully on the plan, but I still saw a lot of improvement over time - he went from sleeping on my arm (ouch!)and waking at least every 2-3 hours to sleeping now in his own bed till very early morning - a 6-9 hour stretch - when he comes to bed with us. Which is OK for me. But even the PPO (Pantley Pull-Off) takes a good many attempts and rejections before suddenly he seemed to feel OK about it. Don't forget to read the "it's still not working" section in the back of the book - it has some good stuff.

From twokats: I mentioned this before, but i'll reiterate it again . . . my husband and I are of the opinion that the Pantley book has a lot to do not with changing the behavior of the baby so much as with adjusting the parents' attitudes and behaviors. when we are careful to honor the baby's needs and routines, the baby will respond to that. our nap times have become very predictable. For that I am so pleased. He takes two one or two-hour naps a day now. He is more rested and happy. Nighttime is getting better, mainly due to my attitude. He still wakes at night but I am less apt to nurse him at first whimper--he settles down more easily without nursing. As soon as we move, I have a plan to wean him from our bed, and I feel hopeful about it, mainly because of the book. I, too, question how much of it is maturity on the part of the baby, but if my attitude is positive, flexible, and disciplined, then I think that my baby is going to eventually "get with the program" as I communicate those things to him.

From Michelle: My daughter is napping so much better now. Nights have been better as well, maybe because of the longer naps during the day. She wakes frequently but is easier to soothe back to sleep and usually by 11 pm or midnight she sleeps through until about 4 am. I haven't been motivated to move her out of our bed or try to leave her during naps, things I wanted to do when I bought this book. Our situation isn't ideal, but improved and tolerable, for now anyway. I admit, I'm procrastinating too - getting her back into the crib won't be easy.

From stargirl: Here's an update on us: Since Juliana started sleeping on her tummy, she doesn't need to nurse back to sleep as much. Interesting, and I'm not sure it has anything to do with our "Pantley plan". I can pat her back to sleep sometimes, even. However, she is still waking just as much as before, if not more. I've decided to focus on the bedtime routine and first "going to sleep" of the night. I'm going to nurse or rock her to sleep and then stay next to her reading (or working next to her, since I'm way behind on my work). I'm dreading this next week, actually. I have a collaborator who is flying all the way from France to work with me and my husband. I'm expecting long days of work. We don't have any sitter or daycare, so our daughter will be with us at work and her normal routine will be upsy-daisy. But we'll just muddle through as best we can.

From iushan: I am new to this board and delighted to find this thread since we have been using the No-Cry Sleep Solution for about a month and a half. Even though we are far from our goal, my 1 year old son has made great progress - now sleeping two 1-2 hour naps and consistently cutting at least a 5-6 hour sleep stretch at night--and my lil guy has been sick in the past with a UTI and still struggling with reflux--just two months ago, I was up every 1-2 hours all night and he only took 30 minute naps. So hang in there everyone--I think attitude is key and just giving it some time--also, consistency has helped us a lot. One thing we need help with, however, is figuring out how to get my son to respond positively to my husband when he wakes at night. Also, we would love to have my husband be able to get my son to sleep so that I could go to my one monthly evening meeting without stressing out. Any input would be great. Our routine is pretty basic: jammies, medicine, books, bottle, lullabies, rocking, sleep in my arms or in crib with patting back--but he won't let my husband in on the fun--maybe someday soon.

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From Ewan's Mum: I am just returning all of the wonderful support that I received this winter when I was ready to curl up and die with exhaustion and everyone, when I posted for the millionth time, just kept reassuring me that this too will pass. Huntergirl provided a marvelous piece of advice which is to create a routine that doesn't just depend on Mum and one which is portable. Unfortunately I read that advice too late with my son (we had already gotten into the rocking or nursing routine). But I have kept it in mind as his routine has evolved. Now we bring his special book and musical giraffe with us and it works! For our next child, I hope to be able to start right off following this advice.

From stargirl: Thanks again, Ewan's Mum. I feel like we are getting there, very slowly. If nothing else is accomplished, then I learned that Juliana needs more sleep than she was getting. She is happier in general now that her naps are longer and she goes to bed earlier. Last night she slept 5 hours in a row at one point last night! happy happy dance. Then up twice more. What a good night. I'd be happy if this is where we ended up, frankly.

From Ewan's Mum: That's wonderful! 5 whole hours!!! We found the same thing with my son. 8 pm really is his bedtime, and has been since he was born, whether he shows signs of sleepiness or not. My son, typical after all my bragging, was very restless last night although he went down very easily. I think he has a tooth tickling as he didn't want to nurse and really didn't fully wake up. The novelty of my son going to bed relatively easily still hasn't worn off. My husband and I still gaze at each in amazement each evening that we have a whole evening together: that my son actually went to sleep before 9 pm, that one of us doesn't have to stay with him to keep him asleep AND that we are 90% sure he won't wake up within an hour. Fingers crossed that you get a few more good nights.

From twokats: I think I've made an interesting observation, myself. 8:00 had been my son's bedtime for a while, up until we went to California, where he then had to deal with a bit of jet lag, then come back east to a new time change. Now he goes down fairly well at 9 . . . different? No, the kid can't read a clock. He still goes to be at the same time, the clock is what's different. humph. And here I was fighting his body clock to get him down at 7:30 or 8 when he's just not ready. It has been so much easier the past few nights, and he has been going down in his crib for several hours as well. Last night he didn't want to come to us until 2:30. Wow. He is teething (one tooth broke through this last week, and I know the other is coming any day) so he has been understandably restless. As I said before, I'm not going to look for huge improvements in the nighttime department until after we move to California and are reasonably settled.

From stargirl: Twas a fluke, that's all. Last night she was up all night. I was wondering what you think of this. She seems very restless and settles down for only 5-10 minutes at a time, then tries to flip over, crawl or cry out. I pat her or nurse her and she settles down again. For 5-10 minutes. This kept up all night. I changed her diaper - it was wet but that's all. I wonder if she is in pain. It seems like it. I gave her Tylenol at 5am (after all night of this) and she slept pretty solidly til 7am. I can't just give her Tylenol all the time, but my guess was that she was in pain. She has 2 teeth halfway up and probably more coming up. What do you think about the Tylenol? She's been doing this most nights for 2 weeks now. She's also fussier in the daytime, too.

From twokats: Definitely sounds like teething. We have been giving my son a dose of infant motrin before bed because he has his top two teeth coming in, and he is sleeping much better.

From mary1: I do not think there is any hope for my daughter. She just refuses to sleep at night. And now I cannot even get her to sleep by nursing down and my husband cannot get her to sleep by walking her in the Bjorn. She is up constantly. She will not even crash. And, she will not take naps now either. She is not teething and does not seem to be in pain. We have tried Benadryl, because many people have told us that it helps their kids sleep. But, even after two doses . . NOTHING!!! I have considered eliminating everything from my diet except bananas, water, toast and applesauce and then adding a new food every other day. We are also thinking about going to a sleep specialist. I guess I am at my wit's end. I am thinking this book is useless. It says to change the sleep association, but I have no idea how! ARGHHH. You guys must just be much better mamas than me, because this is a disaster!

From Ewan's Mum: Oh my I feel for you guys. I wish I could help you more as I know how desperately tired you must be and how difficult concentrating on anything else can be. Mary1 - you're a wonderful mother, look at how patient you are, how much you are trying to do to help your little one!!! Please don't doubt yourself. I did too but now I realize I was doing everything I could but my son had to do his part too. Honestly my son spent nights where he just didn't sleep or would only sleep if he was latched or my husband was continually swinging him in the hammock. And he didn't nap either. I thought he would become ill from sleep deprivation. In retrospect I realize it could have been teeth even though they didn't appear until a few weeks later and also development spurts. My son is very outgoing and go-go-go. He is only learning now how to handle the stimulation from the day. Keep trying the diet to be certain and experimenting with routines. Most importantly, don't doubt yourself!!

Stargirl - sounds like teeth. We rotate around tylenol, advil, and a homeopathic remedy. Unfortunately, clamping down on the breast seemed to relieve the pain the best. Hang in there and just take one day (or minute or hour depending on how tired you are) at a time. I cut my life down to a minimum using every spare moment to sleep when my son was really bad. It will get better and when you look back you'll feel very proud how you made it.

From mary1: Thanks for the encouragement Ewan's Mom. Last night my daughter went down for good at 4:30 am!!! She then got up for the day at 8:30 this morning. I will keep it up though. She is just too important to cut corner's on. Thanks again.

From Terrilein: Jumping into the game late and I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts. Ugh! I've read the book, but I can't seem to get a plan together that we can stick to since our evenings vary depending on when Daddy gets home so I try to stick to a "routine" instead of watching the clock. Basically, she plays with daddy when he gets home, we have dinner, dim the lights and try to keep things low key, get her ready for bed - pj's and diaper change - and then my daughter and I hang out in the bedroom. Either she'll nurse or explore while I just lie on the bed being boring old mom until she gets too bored to do anything other than finally calm down and nurse herself to sleep. I've been trying the removal technique for weeks now with no success. She only gets mad and wakes up completely. We usually put her in her crib in the evening and then bring her to bed with us when we go to bed. Lately we've just been putting her down in our bed since it seems she sleeps longer there. Still she wakes about every two hours wanting to be nursed back to sleep. On the upside, she is sleeping longer at nap time. Will it ever get better???

From tuckersmama: I have not picked up the book, but am going to order it from Amazon as soon as I post this. I am determined to get this under control! Tonight it took two hours to get my son to sleep. What's making things worse is he's teething and my husband is gone (we are moving and he went ahead by 6 weeks to start his job while I wait to sell the house), so I'm going it alone! I'm going to order the book and will get back to you guys. Just reading these posts has made me feel like at least I'm not alone

From TheMom: I've been lurking here just reading and I am absolutely amazed at what wonderful women I'm reading from on this board. You are all so deserving of a big hug (and a good night's sleep, LOL!). I think this book may slowly but surely work. I'm lucky (or not, who knows!) in that my son is 2 now. So it may be easier to change those sleep associations and get the longer stretches. But even with two year molars I think we're doing better using this method. Not dramatically . . . but better. Going from up 12 times a night (literally still, but just briefly) to one long 4 to 6 hour stretch before beginning the marathon. I just really need some light-blocking curtains so that my son isn't raring to go at 5 am (he is NOT really ready and just wants to half nurse and snuggle for two hours, while twiddling etc. NOT a good thing!).

From twokats: Ugh, is this teething?? The last two nights, my son has awakened and stayed up for an hour and a half! He's gotten so predictable, and so much better at sleeping in his crib for longer stretches, but if this becomes a habit, it would ruin all progress. Like just as soon as you get the walls stable, the roof caves in . . . know what I mean? Help! How do I nip this in the bud?

From mary1: This getting up for two hours in the middle of the night is really what is killing me. Here is how we try to handle it. We take her into the living room: no toys, no books, no light, no blankets, no smiles, no talking. Eventually she comes over and wants to be picked up to nurse again. We are hoping that she will figure out that this is not play time. We do not stay in her room because it is really tiny and no chair - not even room for a chair. On another note, we are still looking to go to a specialist for her. But, the wait for an appointment at the University is 2-3 months. She is sleeping about 8 hours in a 24 hour period. She will not even crash after being up 12 hours!! I called her pediatrician again and he said to let her cry! And, that she needs to be in her crib full-time. (But, I can only get some sleep if she is with us in bed part of the night.) Well, my husband and I talked over this latest advice and determined that my instincts, that something else is wrong, are more important to follow. So we are disregarding the ped's advice and continuing to love her and work with the Pantley book. Hopefully we can secure that all important referral to see the specialist.

From twokats: Ugh, I understand about the ped's advice. Matty would cry for hours if left alone. He has grown so accustomed to being with us, that it seems like he has reasoned that the only reason we aren't coming to him is that we've dropped off the planet. I tried cio (crying it out) a couple of times (in desperation / exhaustion) and my poor little boy was in an absolute panic by the time I went to him. It's just not worth it. He trusts us implicitly. I don't want that to end. So, we muddle through. I think I will have to do what you are saying. If he wakes tonight I will take him to his room/crib, put him in his crib and let him "think" for a while. When he is bummed enough that it's not playtime, I'll pick him up and rock him back to sleep. keep your fingers crossed for me.

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